Well, you've must of misunderstood my post. I'm not against piracy be it done by entitled kids or a scener and if people are going to pirate via downloading a MP3, a ROM or a PS3 ISO then there's not anything I could say or do to stop them anyway. When I talked about the "entitled kids" in the scene I in no way mentioned that they were the majority nor where they "the scene" or "100% of the end users". Granted they are a large group, but I was only referring to what KaKaRoTo said in his interview/debate. I was agreeing with him that these "entitled kids" have turned away or chased off developers. Of course that is not the case 100% of the time, but it has happened. My comments have seem to been taken out of context. I did specifically state I was talking about what KaKaRoTo said, did I not? I didn't mean to imply that every scener has chased off developers because that is not the case. Sorry if you misunderstood what I was trying to say.
But KaKaRoTo was wrong there. The leechers were in the minority and the problem only became exacerbated because the so called developers that left due to entitled kids were the true entitled kids. They left because they could no longer get rich quick and they were the ones that were usually the first to troll anybody that tried to help. If somebody tried to learn something the elites would even give false info to stifle progress. They were mad because somebody else was getting attention. They themselves didn't see profitability in the scene so they wouldn't lend their services but they were going to chance somebody else possibly getting some donations that is why they tried their best to stop progression at the beginning. To stop somebody from learning and releasing keys/cfw/whatever. And the reason they didn't release it themselves was because it was how they got their kicks. They felt unique that they were some of the only ones who could pirate certain games. It was something they could hang over others' heads that to them meant they were superior. It was also why they wanted Dex to stay secret. They tried their best to keep the average user from getting a DEX, They had already been converted specifically for piracy and tried to write it off to the userbase that it was for homebrew. And on the side they converted ps3s for certain people at a high price, though mostly kept it to their inner circle. They weren't excluding it for moral reasons, especially since those very moral reasons had no bearing on their actions. Holding others to standards you refuse to hold yourself to is hypocrisy and they are hypocrits, but this was not their real reason. Their reasons were not because some loud and obnoxious person complained they weren't releasing things though some did complain and some had good reason to complain, but this was also not their real reason. Their reasons were because they are trolls. They get off on increasing their e-penises and wallets. And their supply of fuel to their egos and bank accounts got too small for their interests so they left. KaKaRoTo either missed that or is lying to cover their backs, but the point is he was wrong on that point.
Very few, if any, actually got turned away from the ps3 scene because of piracy and if they did, then they were never destined to be. Why? Because piracy has been apart of every scene. Even if you release apps or exploits or whatever to stop it, others will get around it. Already half of the security has already been broken when allowing homebrew. The only possible way of preventing it is to repatch the security with DRM and that would break so called hacker ethics. Better than just giving up if you don't like piracy, try to drown it out with legitimate applications. This is the path the wii scene took. People made many legitimate apps to draw support and separated themselves from the piracy scene. Yes, it is easy to pirate on the wii, but what others do with their time is their business and fault. You can't just change a couple bytes here and there in the hopes of preventing it. Some "white knights" take all the blame and refuse to release anything because they think some guy might suddenly go from spending hundreds of dollars on video games to costing money. Except that doesn't jive with reality. Piracy is not theft. Potential sales being lost is not damage otherwise one could sue their competitors since competitors take away potential sales. And just because some guy did use your program to pirate you are no more liable than the hardware manufacterer that developed the hardware that your program was run on. Consoles are just computers and once bought, whatever is run on them as long as they don't harm others is legitimate. And since piracy doesn't hurt others, it too is legitimate. Holding yourself back because you think your program might be used to save others some money will ruin any ambition you have for your application and render it irrelevant in comparison to somebody who won't be held back by self-imposed guilt.
Well, you've must of misunderstood my post. I'm not against piracy be it done by entitled kids or a scener and if people are going to pirate via downloading a MP3, a ROM or a PS3 ISO then there's not anything I could say or do to stop them anyway. When I talked about the "entitled kids" in the scene I in no way mentioned that they were the majority nor where they "the scene" or "100% of the end users". Granted they are a large group, but I was only referring to what KaKaRoTo said in his interview/debate. I was agreeing with him that these "entitled kids" have turned away or chased off developers. Of course that is not the case 100% of the time, but it has happened. My comments have seem to been taken out of context. I did specifically state I was talking about what KaKaRoTo said, did I not? I didn't mean to imply that every scener has chased off developers because that is not the case. Sorry if you misunderstood what I was trying to say.
That is simply not the case, however. These "entitled" users are nowhere near the majority nor are they a large group, they are just the most vocal and every scene has them. It is not their fault that the "Devs" left. It's the "entitled devs" that created the "entitled kids". With the exception of a few like deank, rogero, rebug, square, etc the majority of "Devs" in this scene that have now left were in it for all of the wrong reasons and once those reasons dried up then so did they.
The state of the scene, the vocal "entitled kiddies" are all the devs very own creation. The worse the devs got, the worse the vocal minority got. As I've said before, it's a trickle-down effect. The ones at the top create the atmosphere. It doesn't work in reverse.
KaKaRoTo's hybrid debate was the most interesting out of the three articles. I liked how he pointed out that the entitled-kids and their desire for piracy turned away developers which in all honesty does explain the lack of homebrew. These entitled goofs did more harm to the PS3 scene then any Dongle has done. Well, that's the way I see it. I however have to disagree with his and the groups reasoning who published the keys. For one it seems strange that there is this pattern of leakers (I don't think they leaked anything at all - aka these incidents have been staged to avoid Sony's bulleye). Also, these three geek-a-teers claimed they released they key to prevent piracy, but if they simply let BlueDisk charge for their firmware (did they even ever plan to charge for it to begin with??? All I saw were free copies after sending them things you should not be sending anyone). So say if they did have a secure delivery system and it cost money then there would be less pirating then them simply giving the solution to the entire world. Well, that's just how I see it. KaKaRoTo for the most part was spot on and did a good job. Not that my opinion matters or anything ...
How on earth do you figure? The homebrew part of this scene has been crap from the very beginning. Developers are releasing plenty of resources to create homebrew that is of the same quality or near the same quality as XNA titles on the 360 - but no one is supporting them. Even before the piracy scene really took off and dongles became "the bad thing" the homebrew scene was crap. And I'm talking about strictly game based homebrew. Stuff like TwinAphex's emulators, resigning applications, etc, etc speak for themselves. But when I think of "homebrew" I think of games. As I consider emulators, emuators. Tools, tools, etc.
The best we had in the homebrew scene was the stuff from thatOtherdev. And while I do appreciate his contributions, those releases are nowhere near good enough to sit there and say "the entitled-kids" made him go away.
As for the crap about piracy on that Daily Reaction article - I laughed my ass off. Most people still believe 1 pirated copy equals one lost sale. When it's actually the opposite! Time has proven that ONE pirated copy DOES NOT EQUAL one lost sale. You want specific data towards it? Read this article : http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/05/Anot...of-game-piracy Wolfire is an indy developer and he has the exact same opinion that I do. 1) 1 pirated copy does not equal one lost sale and 2) Most devs/publishers/joe idiots who preach about piracy are doing so for the wrong reasons. Double goes for the devs/publishers. They blame poor game sales on piracy when it couldn't be farther from the truth. It's because they offered a lackluster title that is bug ridden, a horrible port, etc.
But you know what? Half of that Reaction was centered around "OMG Piracy is going to kill the industry! Now more then ever thanks to this!" I stopped reading half way through because of it. tired of all the moralistic asshats who sit there and preach about anti-piracy on one hand and DO IT THEMSELVES on the other. Half the "moral high ground" peeps in this scene secretly pirate crap while they are in their inner circles and then preach out against it to the public in order to maintain this public image.
About the news/outside of that overall crap article - Glad to see yet another major hack for the PS3. Or rather hack/key release.
PS: Actually most people that pirate games do in fact go out and buy the copy soon afterwords. Most of my collection is derived from games I pirated first. Why? Because I prefer to demo the finished product before I sink $50 - $60 for it. That goes DOUBLE for PC titles. Every PC title I own has been pirated first before I sunk money into it on Steam, Origin, (insert service here.) I WILL NOT buy a game on my PC unless I have first demoed the finished product. And I'm not talking about a crappy year old demo.
PPS: As for the "self entitled kid crap." I can say the same thing towards the developers of this scene. this is the only scene that seems to shoot itself in the foot when it comes to some "non existent moral compass" that is flaunted in the public's eye and then completely obliterated when said individuals who flaunt it are in the sanctity of their inner circle. Most of the devs who are responsible for these hacks pirate like crazy in their personal lives. But you will NEVER get one to admit it. If you do - you can provide the same proof directly from his/her posts over and over again and he/she will say you twisted it around until you go blue in the face. How do I know? Because I had that very argument with one of them. Finally got said individual to admit it and then afterwords when I linked the post, he spent another 4+ hours denying it saying I twisted it around to suit my own needs.
Originally Posted by AlbedoAtoned
Actually there was several cases where the developers themselves were pirating and then bragging about it. And they also scammed the scene which is far worse than piracy by any measure. All of the anti-piracy arguments have fallen flat on their faces. The real issue of developers turning away from this scene is more complicated. There were some that got turned away from all the drama. They saw that helping the scene only hurt them in the long run when the scene would crucify them. And yeah it was wrong for the scene to act that way, but for the most part it was a reaction to how the rest of the developers treated them. Most of the developers left because they couldn't scam the scene anymore for cash and fame anymore. Their schemes were revealed and they abandoned the scene to go laugh on irc about how they were the only ones that could pirate. Some future scene devs saw that they just couldn't get rich anymore and stood away with no work to show for it. Others that had work decided to sell it. Of course they were bound to be hated, that is understandable (though I disagree with the reasons). The real problem is when somebody wanted to help they would be shot down, their biggest critics being the elites. They would receive no help in their desire to further the scene and would just end up mocked by all with the elites throwing all the tomatoes. I wouldn't be surprised if a few of them didn't show up around now to take the credit for all of the progress. Like "I withheld all of this info and now I want credit for finding it first". One of the things I learned over the almost two years was that OtherOS was pretext. It was their excuse and the only way they could stay on their high horse since it was "For teh LINUX". I'm not saying people didn't get any use out of OtherOS and I'm not saying OtherOS wasn't desired by them, just that the only one that genuinely cared mainly for OtherOS was Graf. To the rest, it was a side effect, something they could take advantage of, but not their main concern. It's also why they were so concerned with DEX and it was eventually proven that the main thing DEX was good for was piracy, that it didn't provide anything new for homebrew.
As for the elites, forget them. They chose to leave when people stopped fueling their ego and wallets with nothing to show for it. There are more than enough devs still in this scene that deserve far more than just a commendation for their effort and patience so let's stop worrying about what could have been in regards to developers just trying to increase their e-penis and wallets with false promises.
QFT. This is the real story. I was adding a bit of that in my original post but I'm just too damn tired. So i'll let this post reflect what I was trying to say amidst my rant but failed due to EXTREME lack of sleep!
Originally Posted by brakk3n
*Snip length - click arrow buttons next to quote for original post.*
And what Kaka said was 100% wrong. We knew from the beginning exactly who you were referencing when you said it the first time. It doesn't change the fact that it was complete and utter bullshit. Kak much like the rest of the "inner circle scene devs" loves to toss the buck when it comes to blaming the downfall of the scene. He get's it from his other buddies (now some of them are "ex buddies"). And as previously said you seem to swing one way and then another with your principles. First you didn't care about piracy and in fact supported it and then when you found some cheap solution, and a DEV to back you up, now your "taking the moral high ground." That's what TwinAphex is pissed about. You swing one way when it suits you then COMPLETELY turn tail and run when it's convenient. And even support the very asshats of this scene that are responsible for it decaying as much as it did.
Last edited by xPreatorianx; 10-29-2012 at 06:22 AM.
http://deviant-generation.com/ - my site. Contact me, Korn, and gDrive. I'm the most active but they do come over to speak to me. Likewise it's always a place to send them a message when you need to. Plus you can meet my graphics team!
How on earth do you figure? The homebrew part of this scene has been crap from the very beginning
I agree, but due to my very long history in the scene I have heard first hand from developers whom wish not to develop for the PS3 due to the problems it has - mainly the clowns (entitled kids and the hate from both sides of the dongle wars). Anyway, thank you for the informative post. I learned due to your respectful way of replying (aka you didn't act like a crazy maniac on LSD).
I don't know where you're getting the impression that I changed my views on piracy. I wanted to copy the games I own onto external medium to save the BD-ROM, but found out it's cheaper to get it fixed by Sony. What I said in my reply is that entitled kids and thier desire for piracy made devs leave. Now that I have a better understanding on how it's not that clean cut I am and have always been open to learning from my mistakes. Morever, I've never changed my stance on pirating and don't know how my post could be interpreted as such. Hell, I just tested out RetroArch for the XBOX1. I think that requres ROM images, does it not?
Originally Posted by AlbedoAtoned
But KaKaRoTo was wrong there.
The more I look into it I can see why you [and others] could believe this, but I know that these entitled kids an their circus website are detrimental to the scene. So while I cannot verify exactly what he said I do believe that some developers who weren't trying to make a buck did indeed put up their hat due to the negativity in the scene. However, like xPreatorianx you have given me more to ponder and thank you for replying like a sane individual.
LOL at the sleight of hand insults aimed at me by our dear friend above ('crazed maniac on LSD' - blabla).
Let me break it down for you brakk3n - in terms of 'crazy maniac' factor -
1 - I'm not the one masquerading as some snarky girl - jennys - on a certain forum you are now banned from - where your nuttiness had been exposed earlier. That's right - you previously insulted my work as 'jennys' saying you could write a better GUI in QBASIC. (seriously, done any serious programming as of late or do you think mentioning a shitty BASIC clone gives you street cred?)
2 - I'm not the one bitching about 'piracy' on every forum he's on (for which you get a lot of flak for -on every forum you get on, and it's quite a lot at this point) and tries to kiss the asses of the 'developers/hackers' that hang around in any given scene irregardless of whether or not they deserve it.
3 - I'm not the one who had to go the nut house for a while because of an ill-advised suicide attempt OVER SCENE DRAMA. (this little escapade is all over the Net)
4 - I'm not the one who thinks he's a 'hotshot' and 'has a very long history in the scene' on account of running some news site nobody really cares about, and where you felt it necessary to get into clashes with other website owners just to boost up viewer counts.
5 - I'm not the one whose online presence is his entire life.
That's all dude. Don't take it personally - but yeah, if you're going to fire off sleight of hand insults directed at me - at least be a man about it, make it plain who the fuck you're talking about and don't do this childish-ass innuendo where you're talking to others and tactically throwing insults at a certain somebody without mentioning their name.
Once upon a time - a bunch of self-centered twenty-something white trash loser kiddies think that they can jam their cocks down our throats with bullshit stances on piracy that is far more fake than their mother's tits.
BTW, these scene faggots need to go play in traffic as well.
Truthfully, it pisses everyone off at no end.
The end.
Also Squarepusher - can't wait to see another funny, yet truthful comment from you.
Once upon a time - a bunch of self-centered twenty-something white trash loser kiddies think that they can jam their cocks down our throats with bullshit stances on piracy that is far more fake than their mother's tits.
BTW, these scene faggots need to go play in traffic as well.
Truthfully, it pisses everyone off at no end.
The end.
Also Squarepusher - can't wait to see another funny, yet truthful comment from you.
+REP.
Once again.. gDrive speaketh the mind with good points!
Originally Posted by brakk3n
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